1 00:00:22,450 --> 00:00:09,100 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:28,250 --> 00:00:25,010 hello and welcome to the skeptics are an 3 00:00:31,609 --> 00:00:28,260 episode number 309 for the 21st to sep 4 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:31,619 tember 2014 Richardson is here with you 5 00:00:37,670 --> 00:00:34,530 from Sydney Australia warming up yes 6 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:37,680 Sydney Australia is warming up blossoms 7 00:00:45,439 --> 00:00:42,210 are blossoming on the trees and birds 8 00:00:47,750 --> 00:00:45,449 are singing and the mornings are getting 9 00:00:50,630 --> 00:00:47,760 earlier and earlier spring is coming and 10 00:00:52,100 --> 00:00:50,640 people are sneezing but you don't want a 11 00:00:54,290 --> 00:00:52,110 weather report you want to know what's 12 00:00:56,390 --> 00:00:54,300 coming up on this week's episode of the 13 00:00:58,610 --> 00:00:56,400 skeptic zone we're going to kick off 14 00:01:01,280 --> 00:00:58,620 with joe alabaster evidence please with 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:01,290 Joe alabaster an opinion piece she wrote 16 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:04,050 called defending the lion the 17 00:01:09,530 --> 00:01:06,930 vulnerability of truth an interesting 18 00:01:11,930 --> 00:01:09,540 little opinion piece with Joe alabaster 19 00:01:13,789 --> 00:01:11,940 straight from her blog straight from her 20 00:01:19,399 --> 00:01:13,799 blog and of course there's a link to 21 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:19,409 Joe's blog at wwc aiptek zone TV and the 22 00:01:23,750 --> 00:01:21,450 very nice picture of Joe to this week I 23 00:01:26,630 --> 00:01:23,760 think on the the cover of the skeptic 24 00:01:29,180 --> 00:01:26,640 zone after that it's our voiceover man 25 00:01:30,850 --> 00:01:29,190 this man welcome to the skeptic zone Jim 26 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:30,860 will sure he's going to read a couple 27 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:34,410 skeptical poems he wrote bachelor of 28 00:01:39,860 --> 00:01:37,050 science which is a fun poem and mostly 29 00:01:42,980 --> 00:01:39,870 ghostly sort of a spooky encounter 30 00:01:45,020 --> 00:01:42,990 ghosty sort of palm for skeptics and 31 00:01:46,730 --> 00:01:45,030 after that we read from the pages of the 32 00:01:48,470 --> 00:01:46,740 current skeptic magazine the journal 33 00:01:50,090 --> 00:01:48,480 from Australia skeptics which you hear 34 00:01:52,220 --> 00:01:50,100 advertised quite a lot on the skeptic 35 00:01:55,100 --> 00:01:52,230 zone because I think it's a pretty damn 36 00:01:57,230 --> 00:01:55,110 good magazine in the very latest issue 37 00:02:00,380 --> 00:01:57,240 in your post box now those lucky people 38 00:02:03,050 --> 00:02:00,390 who subscribe there's a piece by buzz 39 00:02:06,770 --> 00:02:03,060 Jen save life and this is called off the 40 00:02:10,369 --> 00:02:06,780 shelf off the shelf as in get off the 41 00:02:13,070 --> 00:02:10,379 shelf it's about visiting libraries 42 00:02:15,229 --> 00:02:13,080 having a look and seeing what sort of 43 00:02:17,740 --> 00:02:15,239 nonsense has invaded down the library 44 00:02:20,570 --> 00:02:17,750 system nonsense in the way of 45 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:20,580 anti-vaccination books pure and london's 46 00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:23,370 folks pure nonsense an interesting now 47 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:25,650 report and i think a good lesson for us 48 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:28,530 all and another reason why you should 49 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:30,450 subscribe to the the skeptic magazine 50 00:02:34,460 --> 00:02:32,730 lots of good articles lots of good 51 00:02:35,900 --> 00:02:34,470 advice are 52 00:02:37,790 --> 00:02:35,910 that it's a week in size for our good 53 00:02:40,310 --> 00:02:37,800 friends the Royal Institution of 54 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:40,320 Australia and they're talking like a 55 00:02:44,780 --> 00:02:42,450 pirate this week haha and all that sort 56 00:02:46,700 --> 00:02:44,790 of thing then to round off the show it's 57 00:02:49,430 --> 00:02:46,710 an interview I did this week with ABC 58 00:02:51,860 --> 00:02:49,440 radio in Newcastle talking about the 59 00:02:53,930 --> 00:02:51,870 vaccination Chronicles and thank you 60 00:02:56,420 --> 00:02:53,940 thank you thank you thank you too may 61 00:02:58,850 --> 00:02:56,430 not our wonderful reporter Maynard who 62 00:03:01,400 --> 00:02:58,860 line that up good on your Maynard that's 63 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:01,410 it was really good of you to do that and 64 00:03:06,550 --> 00:03:04,050 means thousands more people have heard 65 00:03:09,020 --> 00:03:06,560 about the vaccination chronicles video 66 00:03:10,490 --> 00:03:09,030 thanks may not it that's funny when I 67 00:03:13,550 --> 00:03:10,500 woke up this morning my voice was a 68 00:03:17,690 --> 00:03:13,560 pretty good maybe maybe i've got a touch 69 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:17,700 of the old am hay fever sort of I don't 70 00:03:25,130 --> 00:03:20,450 know I better run downstairs have that 71 00:03:27,410 --> 00:03:25,140 honey and lemon mix and a curry and 72 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:27,420 maybe some marshmallows while I'm doing 73 00:03:57,850 --> 00:03:49,840 what we want is some more evidence 74 00:04:04,200 --> 00:03:57,860 please is Joe alabaster hello this is 75 00:04:11,470 --> 00:04:06,940 defending the lion the vulnerability of 76 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:11,480 truth the truth is like a lion you don't 77 00:04:16,870 --> 00:04:13,970 have to defend it that at loose it will 78 00:04:19,210 --> 00:04:16,880 defend itself this quote attributed to 79 00:04:21,780 --> 00:04:19,220 San Agustin has been doing the rounds as 80 00:04:23,770 --> 00:04:21,790 an inspirational meme for some time 81 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:23,780 occasionally it'll pop up on one of my 82 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:26,330 social media streams posted by somebody 83 00:04:31,450 --> 00:04:28,490 who I assume has faith that fact will 84 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:31,460 prevail in the face of falsehood and of 85 00:04:35,650 --> 00:04:33,650 course I certainly hope that a will but 86 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:35,660 I disagree strongly with San Agustin 87 00:04:40,840 --> 00:04:39,050 sentiment based on my observations I 88 00:04:42,700 --> 00:04:40,850 believe that the line of this metaphor 89 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:42,710 is vulnerable and that we do need to 90 00:04:48,340 --> 00:04:45,770 fight to defend it ethical truths which 91 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:48,350 are highly subjective and as such it's 92 00:04:52,270 --> 00:04:49,910 highly debatable whether they're in deep 93 00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:52,280 truths at all do not defend themselves 94 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:54,710 if they did surely have not been 95 00:04:58,420 --> 00:04:56,930 repulsed by honor killings as those who 96 00:05:00,550 --> 00:04:58,430 commit them about having in a manner 97 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:00,560 according to the ethical truth which I 98 00:05:04,540 --> 00:05:02,930 find indefensible that bringing dishonor 99 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:04,550 to one's family is a greater crime than 100 00:05:09,790 --> 00:05:07,130 murdering them would not have an 101 00:05:11,950 --> 00:05:09,800 anti-abortion / pro-choice debate nor a 102 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:11,960 euthanasia debate nor disagreements 103 00:05:16,990 --> 00:05:14,930 regarding the death penalty if ethical 104 00:05:19,830 --> 00:05:17,000 truths could defend themselves should 105 00:05:22,330 --> 00:05:19,840 they not convince us all of their merit 106 00:05:24,610 --> 00:05:22,340 likewise logical truths are not agreed 107 00:05:26,909 --> 00:05:24,620 upon by all be it through a lack of 108 00:05:29,580 --> 00:05:26,919 exploration or exposure to concepts 109 00:05:33,460 --> 00:05:29,590 alternate well argued conclusions or 110 00:05:36,130 --> 00:05:33,470 cognitive dissonance the clearest of all 111 00:05:38,290 --> 00:05:36,140 truths to factual truths backed by solid 112 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:38,300 evidence are still vulnerable to 113 00:05:44,430 --> 00:05:40,970 falsehoods some of which when taken as 114 00:05:47,409 --> 00:05:44,440 truth present real risks to our society 115 00:05:49,390 --> 00:05:47,419 the truth that vaccination is the safest 116 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:49,400 and most effective means by which we can 117 00:05:52,900 --> 00:05:50,450 protect ourselves from 118 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:52,910 vaccine-preventable diseases and that 119 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:54,530 these diseases are a real threat to 120 00:05:58,420 --> 00:05:56,930 human health and life is continually 121 00:06:00,940 --> 00:05:58,430 under attack from anti-vaccination 122 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:00,950 advocates and to some in our community 123 00:06:05,290 --> 00:06:02,890 the anti-vaxxers can be persuasive 124 00:06:07,150 --> 00:06:05,300 resulting in both danger to individuals 125 00:06:10,450 --> 00:06:07,160 health and lowered herd immunity in our 126 00:06:12,190 --> 00:06:10,460 communities as such i funded imperative 127 00:06:14,140 --> 00:06:12,200 that vaccination advocates defend the 128 00:06:15,999 --> 00:06:14,150 truth and I'm honored to know many 129 00:06:19,329 --> 00:06:16,009 people who spend a lot of their time in 130 00:06:21,219 --> 00:06:19,339 are you doing just that likewise 131 00:06:22,570 --> 00:06:21,229 fluoridation of our water supplier is 132 00:06:24,579 --> 00:06:22,580 the safe way to ensure that our 133 00:06:27,339 --> 00:06:24,589 populations dental health is maintained 134 00:06:30,730 --> 00:06:27,349 but anti fluoridation activists believe 135 00:06:32,439 --> 00:06:30,740 differently not only are these activists 136 00:06:34,929 --> 00:06:32,449 able to convince individuals with their 137 00:06:37,540 --> 00:06:34,939 rhetoric they can also influence policy 138 00:06:39,429 --> 00:06:37,550 to the extent that entire regions remove 139 00:06:42,399 --> 00:06:39,439 fluoride from their water supply as a 140 00:06:44,469 --> 00:06:42,409 result of their campaigning in this case 141 00:06:48,070 --> 00:06:44,479 to maintain evidence-based Public Health 142 00:06:50,110 --> 00:06:48,080 Policy we must defend the truth the 143 00:06:52,899 --> 00:06:50,120 truths that fringe conspiracy theorists 144 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:52,909 deny that the moon landing occurred that 145 00:06:57,399 --> 00:06:55,490 chem trails and merely contrails that 146 00:06:59,200 --> 00:06:57,409 the reptilians or Illuminati though 147 00:07:02,379 --> 00:06:59,210 probably aren't controlling the wall 148 00:07:04,329 --> 00:07:02,389 behind the scenes valuably cause less 149 00:07:05,950 --> 00:07:04,339 harm to communities and relatively 150 00:07:07,959 --> 00:07:05,960 little to the individuals who believe 151 00:07:09,670 --> 00:07:07,969 them the moon landing hoax sir who 152 00:07:12,549 --> 00:07:09,680 handed Buzz Aldrin one too many times 153 00:07:14,499 --> 00:07:12,559 and got punched aside but they do cervix 154 00:07:16,989 --> 00:07:14,509 examples of situations in which the 155 00:07:19,239 --> 00:07:16,999 truth is not defending itself I'm 156 00:07:21,249 --> 00:07:19,249 inclined to spend less time defending 157 00:07:22,869 --> 00:07:21,259 these truths though I do tend to take 158 00:07:24,610 --> 00:07:22,879 issue with the conspiracy theorists 159 00:07:28,029 --> 00:07:24,620 undermining of rational evidence-based 160 00:07:29,709 --> 00:07:28,039 thinking it's probable that sin 161 00:07:32,139 --> 00:07:29,719 Augustine was referring to the biblical 162 00:07:34,089 --> 00:07:32,149 truth in which he believed that the 163 00:07:36,969 --> 00:07:34,099 truth of his God would prevail without 164 00:07:39,219 --> 00:07:36,979 his defense clearly at this point in 165 00:07:41,259 --> 00:07:39,229 human history it's not given the wide 166 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:41,269 array of beliefs and lack thereof held 167 00:07:47,100 --> 00:07:43,490 by the people of this planet his 168 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:47,110 biblical truth is not defending itself 169 00:07:52,540 --> 00:07:49,610 we humans are capable of manipulating 170 00:07:55,570 --> 00:07:52,550 our world both with concepts and with 171 00:07:57,820 --> 00:07:55,580 actions both metaphorically and in 172 00:08:00,309 --> 00:07:57,830 reality we rented the line vulnerable 173 00:08:03,429 --> 00:08:00,319 and it relies on our protection if it is 174 00:08:04,719 --> 00:08:03,439 to prevail the benefits of defending the 175 00:08:06,790 --> 00:08:04,729 line and whether we have a moral 176 00:08:10,299 --> 00:08:06,800 imperative to do so a truth to be 177 00:08:13,179 --> 00:08:10,309 explored ethically logically and 178 00:08:15,429 --> 00:08:13,189 factually it's an orca stands truth that 179 00:08:28,610 --> 00:08:15,439 the truth can defend itself does not 180 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:32,370 hey Kenny oh hi Tom I say a this Park 181 00:08:38,730 --> 00:08:36,330 yeah yes great weather oh look a unicorn 182 00:08:41,910 --> 00:08:38,740 unicorn there are no such things as 183 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:41,920 unicorns silly yes there is no there 184 00:08:47,220 --> 00:08:44,110 isn't hey guys what are you arguing 185 00:08:49,380 --> 00:08:47,230 about tom thinks unicorns are real hey 186 00:08:52,470 --> 00:08:49,390 so are let's look this up in the 187 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:52,480 skeptics dictionary now what how can we 188 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:54,250 do this in this bar there is the 189 00:08:57,630 --> 00:08:55,930 computer here you guys probably don't 190 00:09:00,720 --> 00:08:57,640 know about the skeptics dictionary app 191 00:09:04,650 --> 00:09:00,730 available now for iPhone iPad and iPod 192 00:09:06,180 --> 00:09:04,660 touch in the app store Wow cool the app 193 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:06,190 lets you access all of the great 194 00:09:10,980 --> 00:09:08,410 skeptics dictionary articles when you're 195 00:09:13,710 --> 00:09:10,990 on the go here let me look up unicorns 196 00:09:16,230 --> 00:09:13,720 sound cool Kenny prepare to be proven 197 00:09:20,370 --> 00:09:16,240 wrong it says here the Unicorn is a 198 00:09:21,630 --> 00:09:20,380 creature from fables aha actually I see 199 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:21,640 now that someone just dumped their ice 200 00:09:29,850 --> 00:09:24,250 cream cone on that horse's head thanks 201 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:29,860 skeptics dictionary iphone app bachelor 202 00:09:34,770 --> 00:09:32,530 of science you're a bachelor of science 203 00:09:36,930 --> 00:09:34,780 so I guess that means you know how to 204 00:09:39,270 --> 00:09:36,940 constantly keep in touch with those who 205 00:09:41,630 --> 00:09:39,280 have to go and have a summon up their 206 00:09:45,150 --> 00:09:41,640 spirits if they're slightly willing and 207 00:09:48,060 --> 00:09:45,160 speak to the dead why that really is 208 00:09:51,180 --> 00:09:48,070 quite thrilling does this gift which you 209 00:09:53,460 --> 00:09:51,190 have meme you could talk to pits and do 210 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:53,470 you do it by the ether or through the 211 00:09:59,160 --> 00:09:55,810 media admits could you get in contact 212 00:10:01,830 --> 00:09:59,170 say with my dear departed cat for having 213 00:10:05,070 --> 00:10:01,840 been once run over is that the end of 214 00:10:07,290 --> 00:10:05,080 that and what about my dog do you think 215 00:10:09,770 --> 00:10:07,300 you'd hear him bark from that big doggy 216 00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:09,780 playground the dead dog departed park 217 00:10:14,460 --> 00:10:12,160 having made a connection could I be 218 00:10:17,250 --> 00:10:14,470 absolutely sure that the doggy were 219 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:17,260 communing was the pet I'm pining for I'm 220 00:10:21,810 --> 00:10:19,330 worried about the chance of the wrong 221 00:10:24,270 --> 00:10:21,820 contact being made that you might get a 222 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:24,280 canine with which I never played but 223 00:10:28,620 --> 00:10:26,050 someone else's pet which would 224 00:10:32,460 --> 00:10:28,630 madsen to my call or perish the thought 225 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:32,470 you'd get no dead dog Sol at all now I 226 00:10:37,949 --> 00:10:35,290 might just have to wait until I joined I 227 00:10:41,190 --> 00:10:37,959 passed on pets it seems you might be 228 00:10:43,980 --> 00:10:41,200 trying to lay off my psychic bits and as 229 00:10:46,530 --> 00:10:43,990 for my parents where although you have 230 00:10:49,079 --> 00:10:46,540 that ticket I think the school was 231 00:10:56,819 --> 00:10:49,089 falling so you know where you can stick 232 00:10:58,920 --> 00:10:56,829 it Mostly Ghostly there's something 233 00:11:02,190 --> 00:10:58,930 lurking in the shadows hey are you a 234 00:11:05,550 --> 00:11:02,200 Ghost a soul departed or maybe you're an 235 00:11:08,519 --> 00:11:05,560 angel looking for a host this time there 236 00:11:11,190 --> 00:11:08,529 was an answer when windows started to 237 00:11:14,579 --> 00:11:11,200 rattle the table rows then crashed to 238 00:11:16,889 --> 00:11:14,589 the floor and we were set for battle the 239 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:16,899 cameras word as the ghost appeared in 240 00:11:23,490 --> 00:11:20,170 the cold air there would bony fingers 241 00:11:26,220 --> 00:11:23,500 bold knuckles craggy face and straggly 242 00:11:30,329 --> 00:11:26,230 hair eyes set back deep in their sockets 243 00:11:33,389 --> 00:11:30,339 tearing stark raving mad would this be a 244 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:33,399 clash of violent wills could this be 245 00:11:38,639 --> 00:11:36,490 really bad never had I seen such a 246 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:38,649 visual trick as this site I saw before 247 00:11:43,380 --> 00:11:40,690 me if it was a trick with smoke and 248 00:11:46,139 --> 00:11:43,390 mirrors but nothing didn't show me just 249 00:11:48,810 --> 00:11:46,149 a realistic site of an unrealistic thing 250 00:11:50,910 --> 00:11:48,820 a ghost from the dead and I tried to 251 00:11:54,750 --> 00:11:50,920 think what I'd eaten that put chemicals 252 00:11:57,540 --> 00:11:54,760 in my head it spoke in a feeble scratchy 253 00:11:59,579 --> 00:11:57,550 voice and I hardly heard a word my heart 254 00:12:01,949 --> 00:11:59,589 pounding they on my choice was all I 255 00:12:04,350 --> 00:12:01,959 really heard and the table started 256 00:12:07,650 --> 00:12:04,360 trembling and it danced across the floor 257 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:07,660 as the ghost looked straight at me so he 258 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:11,170 could see what I was for find my corpse 259 00:12:17,220 --> 00:12:14,410 find my dead body his words scratched 260 00:12:20,130 --> 00:12:17,230 the air and I looked into his eyes where 261 00:12:23,370 --> 00:12:20,140 I got trapped inside his stare I'm 262 00:12:26,370 --> 00:12:23,380 asking for help from you and unbeliever 263 00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:26,380 he wheezed you must help me find my body 264 00:12:32,910 --> 00:12:30,399 and I felt my body squeezed could this 265 00:12:35,430 --> 00:12:32,920 really be a disconnected spirit from 266 00:12:38,260 --> 00:12:35,440 beyond the real I tried to convince 267 00:12:40,570 --> 00:12:38,270 myself that I couldn't see or hear or 268 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:40,580 eel but it was as though I could see 269 00:12:47,980 --> 00:12:44,330 into his brain and he mine and the cold 270 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:47,990 concept sent cold shivers up and down my 271 00:12:53,650 --> 00:12:50,930 spine his look bought its way to the 272 00:12:56,620 --> 00:12:53,660 back of my skull through my eyes and I 273 00:12:59,890 --> 00:12:56,630 saw his naked soul stripped of life of 274 00:13:02,380 --> 00:12:59,900 truth and of lies then his tenuous grip 275 00:13:05,130 --> 00:13:02,390 on my world started to slowly loosen 276 00:13:09,130 --> 00:13:05,140 hold and the room was sucked of light 277 00:13:11,770 --> 00:13:09,140 without light was cold this glorious 278 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:11,780 apparition was disintegrating fading 279 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:14,330 with his hope going back to the world 280 00:13:19,740 --> 00:13:16,930 between worlds sliding down the slope 281 00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:19,750 disappearing as he had appeared and 282 00:13:28,090 --> 00:13:24,310 vanishing from my mind until a strange 283 00:13:35,260 --> 00:13:28,100 uneasy feeling was the sole thing he 284 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:38,390 ad hominem begging the question factoid 285 00:13:42,650 --> 00:13:40,530 propagation false analogy false cause 286 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:42,660 false dichotomy gibberish immunized 287 00:13:45,980 --> 00:13:44,490 hypothesis moral equivalence poison the 288 00:13:48,620 --> 00:13:45,990 well simple modern certitude stacking 289 00:13:50,570 --> 00:13:48,630 the deck and WTF are just some of the 290 00:13:53,090 --> 00:13:50,580 fallacies we provide real life examples 291 00:13:56,750 --> 00:13:53,100 of in hunting humbug 101 a podcast about 292 00:14:23,850 --> 00:13:56,760 bad arguments check it out at www.viki 293 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:26,980 from the pages of the skeptic volume 34 294 00:14:36,190 --> 00:14:31,970 number 3 sep tember 2014 off the shelf 295 00:14:38,350 --> 00:14:36,200 by buzz Jen sapling audience la visited 296 00:14:41,860 --> 00:14:38,360 his local library and didn't like what 297 00:14:44,740 --> 00:14:41,870 he saw and said so nothing seems to whip 298 00:14:46,510 --> 00:14:44,750 people up into a rabid frenzy like a 299 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:46,520 good old conversation around 300 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:48,890 vaccinations I have an old schoolmate 301 00:14:53,710 --> 00:14:50,930 who happens to be a medical doctor on 302 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:53,720 the Queensland sunshine coast on the 303 00:14:57,850 --> 00:14:56,330 first of April no joke intended an 304 00:14:59,800 --> 00:14:57,860 article about anti-vaccination 305 00:15:03,190 --> 00:14:59,810 literature appeared in the sunshine 306 00:15:05,890 --> 00:15:03,200 coast daily anti-vaccination books in 307 00:15:08,530 --> 00:15:05,900 library anger doctors my friend dr. 308 00:15:11,140 --> 00:15:08,540 david mcintosh reported to his local 309 00:15:13,540 --> 00:15:11,150 council that there was in fact an 310 00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:13,550 anti-vaccination propaganda being freely 311 00:15:18,190 --> 00:15:15,710 distributed in the health and well-being 312 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:18,200 section of his local library in 313 00:15:22,350 --> 00:15:20,330 particular literature that suggested a 314 00:15:25,330 --> 00:15:22,360 link between vaccinations and autism 315 00:15:27,940 --> 00:15:25,340 after several letters expressing concern 316 00:15:30,070 --> 00:15:27,950 over the material being available and 317 00:15:32,050 --> 00:15:30,080 despite the Sunshine Coast having some 318 00:15:34,630 --> 00:15:32,060 of the country's lowest vaccination 319 00:15:37,750 --> 00:15:34,640 rates the council cited freedom of 320 00:15:40,450 --> 00:15:37,760 speech and good old two sides to every 321 00:15:41,890 --> 00:15:40,460 debate as a reason for its decision 322 00:15:45,310 --> 00:15:41,900 following is a copy of the 323 00:15:48,340 --> 00:15:45,320 correspondence to the council dear meron 324 00:15:49,870 --> 00:15:48,350 councillors of the Sunshine Coast I wish 325 00:15:51,790 --> 00:15:49,880 to draw your attention to several 326 00:15:54,010 --> 00:15:51,800 libraries under the auspices of the 327 00:15:56,170 --> 00:15:54,020 council that have books on their shells 328 00:15:58,780 --> 00:15:56,180 that contain misinformation about 329 00:16:01,120 --> 00:15:58,790 vaccinations of concern is that there is 330 00:16:03,250 --> 00:16:01,130 content suggesting vaccinations cause of 331 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:03,260 autism I have drawn this to the 332 00:16:08,020 --> 00:16:05,510 attention of the library services and to 333 00:16:10,420 --> 00:16:08,030 their credit they have elected to defend 334 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:10,430 the right of free speech this is at the 335 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:13,130 expense of accuracy though it is my 336 00:16:17,950 --> 00:16:15,170 suggestion that open discussion of 337 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:17,960 topics of all types is to be committed 338 00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:19,850 with given we have one of the lowest 339 00:16:24,340 --> 00:16:21,710 vaccination rates of children in 340 00:16:25,930 --> 00:16:24,350 Australia it seems inappropriate that 341 00:16:27,260 --> 00:16:25,940 council would tesson tlie approve 342 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:27,270 conspiracy theory 343 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:29,610 literature that result in compromised 344 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:32,010 children's health the mere fact that 345 00:16:36,410 --> 00:16:34,170 such literature can be existed in public 346 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:36,420 library can only serve to support the 347 00:16:41,390 --> 00:16:38,850 notion that anti-vaccination stances are 348 00:16:43,250 --> 00:16:41,400 supported which would seem contrary to 349 00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:43,260 the role of a responsible government 350 00:16:49,220 --> 00:16:46,560 body I would seek to implore counsel to 351 00:16:51,230 --> 00:16:49,230 take a leadership role in assessing the 352 00:16:54,530 --> 00:16:51,240 accuracy of literature it makes 353 00:16:57,890 --> 00:16:54,540 available its shells when it comes to 354 00:17:00,380 --> 00:16:57,900 such an important topic and implement a 355 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:00,390 review of policy regarding this 356 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:02,930 particular topic this got me thinking 357 00:17:07,130 --> 00:17:05,250 are there these kinds of things 358 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:07,140 happening in the Australian Capital 359 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:09,810 Territory public library of course there 360 00:17:15,410 --> 00:17:12,770 are although not as many as I had feared 361 00:17:17,980 --> 00:17:15,420 but what they did have was what I 362 00:17:21,650 --> 00:17:17,990 considered to be some of the worst I 363 00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:21,660 found vaccination roulette written by 364 00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:24,750 none other than the former avian now AV 365 00:17:30,260 --> 00:17:28,710 SN I did my best to try and read it it 366 00:17:33,140 --> 00:17:30,270 was hard going the book is filled with 367 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:33,150 the expected anecdotal evidence and 368 00:17:37,850 --> 00:17:35,250 lashings of victory or misinformation 369 00:17:40,970 --> 00:17:37,860 and loads of cherry-picking statistics 370 00:17:43,730 --> 00:17:40,980 and evidence not to mention a quote from 371 00:17:45,140 --> 00:17:43,740 Gandhi in the introduction i also found 372 00:17:48,050 --> 00:17:45,150 another book which was rather more 373 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:48,060 subtle with its auntie vax message 374 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:51,450 called vaccinations thoughtful parents 375 00:17:56,540 --> 00:17:54,090 guide it is written by aviva jill rum 376 00:17:59,720 --> 00:17:56,550 the following is a blurb on the jacket 377 00:18:01,370 --> 00:17:59,730 of the book deciding whether or went to 378 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:01,380 vaccinate a child is one of the most 379 00:18:06,140 --> 00:18:04,290 important now most difficult health care 380 00:18:07,820 --> 00:18:06,150 decisions a parent will ever make the 381 00:18:10,130 --> 00:18:07,830 recent increase in the number of 382 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:10,140 vaccinations recommended any concurrent 383 00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:12,210 controversies about whether vaccinations 384 00:18:17,050 --> 00:18:14,910 are safe or even effective have left 385 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:17,060 many parents confused and concerned 386 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:19,770 Midwife herbalist and mother of four 387 00:18:24,530 --> 00:18:22,410 Bohemond you're wrong sifts through this 388 00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:24,540 made of current research on magazine 389 00:18:29,540 --> 00:18:27,120 safety and efficacy and offers a 390 00:18:31,790 --> 00:18:29,550 sensible balanced discussion on the pros 391 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:31,800 and cons of each routine childhood 392 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:33,250 vaccinations 393 00:18:37,050 --> 00:18:35,290 she presents the full spectrum of 394 00:18:38,850 --> 00:18:37,060 options available to parents for 395 00:18:41,580 --> 00:18:38,860 vaccinations on the standardized or 396 00:18:44,060 --> 00:18:41,590 individualized schedule selective 397 00:18:46,050 --> 00:18:44,070 vaccination or no vaccinations at all 398 00:18:48,330 --> 00:18:46,060 negotiating daycare and school 399 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:48,340 requirements dealing with other parents 400 00:18:52,590 --> 00:18:50,650 and traveling with an unvaccinated child 401 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:52,600 are all covered in detail the book also 402 00:18:57,630 --> 00:18:55,210 suggests ways to strengthen children's 403 00:18:59,610 --> 00:18:57,640 of mere systems and maintain optimal 404 00:19:03,080 --> 00:18:59,620 health and offers verbal and fermion 405 00:19:05,460 --> 00:19:03,090 pathak remedies for childhood ailments 406 00:19:07,710 --> 00:19:05,470 emphasizing that no single approach is 407 00:19:10,260 --> 00:19:07,720 appropriate for every child the other 408 00:19:13,260 --> 00:19:10,270 guys parents as they make the choices 409 00:19:15,030 --> 00:19:13,270 that are right for their child my next 410 00:19:17,970 --> 00:19:15,040 step was to contact the manager of 411 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:17,980 collection services national and state 412 00:19:22,740 --> 00:19:21,010 libraries Australia Matthew Bareilles to 413 00:19:25,260 --> 00:19:22,750 discuss my concerns regarding these 414 00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:25,270 books well I stated I was not a fan of 415 00:19:30,030 --> 00:19:27,910 censorship I also felt that the 416 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:30,040 information in the avn book had been 417 00:19:34,170 --> 00:19:32,410 proven to be fraudulent and there was a 418 00:19:37,230 --> 00:19:34,180 very real possibility of that 419 00:19:39,540 --> 00:19:37,240 information harming children I stated 420 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:39,550 that this topic didn't have two sides to 421 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:41,650 argue as the overwhelming scientific 422 00:19:47,490 --> 00:19:44,290 evidence was in favor of vaccination I 423 00:19:50,130 --> 00:19:47,500 also told him of the recent warning that 424 00:19:52,290 --> 00:19:50,140 had been issued by the H Triple C in 425 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:52,300 relation to the information and in 426 00:19:58,830 --> 00:19:55,930 particular to the avs ends website and 427 00:20:01,590 --> 00:19:58,840 the information had provided he agreed 428 00:20:03,780 --> 00:20:01,600 that from time to time books needed to 429 00:20:05,370 --> 00:20:03,790 be reviewed this was particularly so 430 00:20:08,430 --> 00:20:05,380 with those found in the health 431 00:20:09,570 --> 00:20:08,440 well-being and science categories so as 432 00:20:12,030 --> 00:20:09,580 to keep up-to-date with current 433 00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:12,040 scientific opinion he said he would 434 00:20:16,860 --> 00:20:13,840 reserve the books which he did and 435 00:20:19,860 --> 00:20:16,870 review them in good time and respond to 436 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:19,870 me with his findings I also enlisted the 437 00:20:24,810 --> 00:20:22,210 Canberra skeptics lend a hand Amanda 438 00:20:27,150 --> 00:20:24,820 Davao has been making queries on behalf 439 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:27,160 of the Canberra skeptics and I thank 440 00:20:32,790 --> 00:20:30,010 them greatly for their support in this 441 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:32,800 matter the end result in my endeavors 442 00:20:37,380 --> 00:20:34,810 has been the removal of this particular 443 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:37,390 book from the a.c.t Public Library 444 00:20:44,130 --> 00:20:42,010 System much the howls of the Avs n I was 445 00:20:47,039 --> 00:20:44,140 also informed that this book may well 446 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:47,049 have been donated and placed on the show 447 00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:49,090 perhaps by someone sympathetic to the 448 00:20:54,749 --> 00:20:52,809 avs n as I was assured that this was not 449 00:20:57,330 --> 00:20:54,759 the sort of book the library would be 450 00:21:01,229 --> 00:20:57,340 interested in purchasing or placing on 451 00:21:03,180 --> 00:21:01,239 it's shelves since the Avs end and or 452 00:21:05,279 --> 00:21:03,190 its supporters found out I was 453 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:05,289 responsible for this action I have been 454 00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:07,210 attacked on Facebook and likened to 455 00:21:13,019 --> 00:21:10,480 Hitler as the Avs end has suggested that 456 00:21:16,590 --> 00:21:13,029 we are burning books just like the Nazi 457 00:21:18,869 --> 00:21:16,600 Party the Avs n also suggested that it 458 00:21:21,659 --> 00:21:18,879 would be petitioning to get the book 459 00:21:23,399 --> 00:21:21,669 back on the shelves however to date 460 00:21:25,499 --> 00:21:23,409 there has been no record of any books 461 00:21:27,899 --> 00:21:25,509 being received and they are not found 462 00:21:29,580 --> 00:21:27,909 when doing a catalog search I was 463 00:21:31,889 --> 00:21:29,590 willing to concede to have the book 464 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:31,899 simply move to a section other than the 465 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:34,090 health or well-being section with the 466 00:21:39,239 --> 00:21:36,369 library manager was the one who decided 467 00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:39,249 to remove it not me in the end I feel 468 00:21:43,799 --> 00:21:41,049 that this was the best result I could 469 00:21:45,509 --> 00:21:43,809 have hoped for but as I have said there 470 00:21:48,599 --> 00:21:45,519 are still plenty of anti-vaccination 471 00:21:51,509 --> 00:21:48,609 books out there and it pays to always be 472 00:21:53,070 --> 00:21:51,519 vigilant I suggest that everyone should 473 00:21:55,529 --> 00:21:53,080 perhaps take a visit to their local 474 00:21:57,659 --> 00:21:55,539 library and take a look on the health 475 00:21:59,999 --> 00:21:57,669 and well-being shelves you might be 476 00:22:02,249 --> 00:22:00,009 surprised at what do you find about the 477 00:22:24,630 --> 00:22:02,259 orphan boss gents our play is now at an 478 00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:28,180 hi I'm audit oh yeah Kristen or evil 479 00:22:31,510 --> 00:22:29,840 tips advice on logic lifted all the 480 00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:31,520 skeptics own um skip the comedian more 481 00:22:34,660 --> 00:22:33,110 again that feels much can prob get up 482 00:22:36,250 --> 00:22:34,670 early for podcast over and against 483 00:22:38,260 --> 00:22:36,260 capsis river- like if I'm ever after 484 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:38,270 this match since ralph i skipped assist 485 00:22:42,250 --> 00:22:40,250 off and loop or hyper versus the deep 486 00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:42,260 plan architecture and calendar or escape 487 00:22:45,010 --> 00:22:43,910 this car together or linked you till i 488 00:22:46,690 --> 00:22:45,020 will escape this guild association 489 00:22:48,130 --> 00:22:46,700 escapes the slogan of authority and lay 490 00:22:50,860 --> 00:22:48,140 all the discs ateres hefty pass caps is 491 00:22:54,370 --> 00:22:50,870 for domestic in eau de yourself skips a 492 00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:54,380 stop hello hello I'm moderate and I'm 493 00:22:58,150 --> 00:22:56,240 Kristin and we want to let you know that 494 00:23:00,070 --> 00:22:58,160 there are lots of Norwegian skeptics for 495 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:00,080 you to get to know their blogs and 496 00:23:03,610 --> 00:23:01,850 permits and a podcast and the Norwegian 497 00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:03,620 skeptics also do paranormal tests and 498 00:23:08,140 --> 00:23:05,510 consumer activism to find out more 499 00:23:11,299 --> 00:23:08,150 Google Norwegian skeptics or visit skep 500 00:23:11,309 --> 00:23:17,240 you 501 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:20,010 welcome to a weakened science from ra oz 502 00:23:24,180 --> 00:23:22,090 bringing you the science you need to 503 00:23:26,039 --> 00:23:24,190 know in recognition of talk like a 504 00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:26,049 pirate day this week we're going to get 505 00:23:35,610 --> 00:23:29,440 old swashbuckling are as we look at the 506 00:23:37,769 --> 00:23:35,620 science of me hearties are two pirate 507 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:37,779 life for me sailing the yarn or with 508 00:23:41,970 --> 00:23:39,850 science on your side you know matey 509 00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:41,980 sailing the blue oceans I need to be 510 00:23:46,889 --> 00:23:44,049 able to navigate my way with the Stars 511 00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:46,899 to do this we Mariners use the device 512 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:48,960 quarterback staff during the day or 513 00:23:54,299 --> 00:23:51,730 nocturnal at night these measured the 514 00:23:57,210 --> 00:23:54,309 angle of the Sun or stars to find the 515 00:23:59,310 --> 00:23:57,220 ship's latitude and time important to 516 00:24:01,260 --> 00:23:59,320 knowing where I'm plundering is also the 517 00:24:03,299 --> 00:24:01,270 sextant by measuring the angle of the 518 00:24:05,789 --> 00:24:03,309 Sun we could calculate the latitude of 519 00:24:08,430 --> 00:24:05,799 airship if the Sun was right over ahead 520 00:24:11,460 --> 00:24:08,440 we be on the equator but if not we'd be 521 00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:11,470 a particular distance north or south the 522 00:24:15,659 --> 00:24:13,120 sextant could also be used to measure 523 00:24:18,330 --> 00:24:15,669 the angle between the moon and a star or 524 00:24:20,610 --> 00:24:18,340 planet to determine the longitude or two 525 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:20,620 landmarks to triangulate the position of 526 00:24:26,970 --> 00:24:24,490 the ship to work out how fast we be 527 00:24:29,639 --> 00:24:26,980 traveling we use the chip log a piece of 528 00:24:31,470 --> 00:24:29,649 wood tides the end of a rope so when the 529 00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:31,480 wood is thrown overboard it pulls the 530 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:34,000 rope out along the rope / efully space 531 00:24:39,269 --> 00:24:36,490 nuts counting the number of nuts which 532 00:24:41,610 --> 00:24:39,279 go past every 28 seconds show the speed 533 00:24:44,399 --> 00:24:41,620 of the ship this is why we have the term 534 00:24:46,230 --> 00:24:44,409 nuts for the speed of a ship and one to 535 00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:46,240 which let us calculate all this quickly 536 00:24:50,909 --> 00:24:48,640 and accurately was Gunter's ruled a 537 00:24:52,980 --> 00:24:50,919 logarithmic scale roller which allowed 538 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:52,990 easy calculations using a set of 539 00:24:57,919 --> 00:24:55,570 calipers and now let's plunder air for 540 00:25:00,630 --> 00:24:57,929 fast facts 541 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:00,640 pirates used an early form of grenade 542 00:25:04,710 --> 00:25:02,290 which are essentially just huddled 543 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:04,720 mescal balls filled with gunpowder with 544 00:25:09,419 --> 00:25:07,090 a simple fuse sticking out the end a 545 00:25:11,850 --> 00:25:09,429 pirate's was probably more likely to die 546 00:25:13,710 --> 00:25:11,860 of disease than in combat some of the 547 00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:13,720 more common diseases were a result of 548 00:25:19,290 --> 00:25:16,630 poor hygiene another common disease was 549 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:19,300 scurvy words on by a lack of vitamin C 550 00:25:24,690 --> 00:25:21,490 and a diet which consisted of cured and 551 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:24,700 salted foods and if a pirate survived an 552 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:27,250 injury that required an amputation they 553 00:25:31,650 --> 00:25:29,290 still had to survive blood loss during 554 00:25:33,810 --> 00:25:31,660 the operation the intense pain of an 555 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:33,820 amputation without anesthetic and an 556 00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:35,890 almost inevitable infection following 557 00:25:41,340 --> 00:25:38,320 surgery medical understanding of the 558 00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:41,350 times rudimentary its best hmm that's 559 00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:43,510 quite enough that's I think for more 560 00:25:49,710 --> 00:25:45,760 information on science of pirates go to 561 00:25:52,890 --> 00:25:49,720 the RLS website RI aus org dot a you 562 00:25:55,290 --> 00:25:52,900 follow us on twitter at ra oz and like 563 00:26:05,910 --> 00:25:55,300 us on facebook i'm ben lewis and we'll 564 00:26:10,270 --> 00:26:08,260 yeah guys I was talking to Richard 565 00:26:12,250 --> 00:26:10,280 solvency today all right he said if we 566 00:26:14,380 --> 00:26:12,260 record a trailer for our podcast 567 00:26:16,030 --> 00:26:14,390 skeptics with a que he'd play it on 568 00:26:17,380 --> 00:26:16,040 their own they're sure nice nice of him 569 00:26:18,580 --> 00:26:17,390 that's very generous it's pretty good 570 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:18,590 i'm not sure what we could do though I 571 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:20,570 mean well suppose you tell people the 572 00:26:24,940 --> 00:26:22,130 shows about but it's basically as this 573 00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:24,950 yeah but yeah but you know we talk about 574 00:26:27,850 --> 00:26:26,720 science and skepticism and things that's 575 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:27,860 that's true I suppose you know you 576 00:26:31,150 --> 00:26:28,970 mentioned the website address what 577 00:26:32,919 --> 00:26:31,160 merseyside skeptics told our UK yeah 578 00:26:34,270 --> 00:26:32,929 yeah just like searches night UN's oh 579 00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:34,280 and then we could end with like a big 580 00:26:51,970 --> 00:26:37,760 song like the skeptics with okay god no 581 00:26:55,990 --> 00:26:51,980 no no no don't don't do that on 1233 ABC 582 00:26:59,560 --> 00:26:56,000 newcastle i don't think it matters where 583 00:27:04,600 --> 00:26:59,570 you stand on vaccination immunization of 584 00:27:06,370 --> 00:27:04,610 of your kids i think though well it in 585 00:27:09,820 --> 00:27:06,380 my opinion it does matter i think though 586 00:27:14,770 --> 00:27:09,830 the way that people are often treated on 587 00:27:18,010 --> 00:27:14,780 either side of the argument is sometimes 588 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:18,020 pretty awful Richard Saunders is an 589 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:20,210 independent filmmaker and public speaker 590 00:27:24,430 --> 00:27:21,650 and joins me this afternoon to talk 591 00:27:26,460 --> 00:27:24,440 about his new short documentary which is 592 00:27:28,299 --> 00:27:26,470 called the vaccination chronicles 593 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:28,309 Richard thank you very much for your 594 00:27:36,250 --> 00:27:31,970 time my pleasure I have tried very 595 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:36,260 carefully over many years to try and 596 00:27:40,169 --> 00:27:38,090 ensure that interviews that I do with 597 00:27:44,590 --> 00:27:40,179 people who are perhaps anti-vaccination 598 00:27:46,390 --> 00:27:44,600 as fair as I can possibly make them but 599 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:46,400 it is difficult when you see children 600 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:49,490 who have been injured by a vaccine 601 00:27:53,620 --> 00:27:51,770 preventable disease absolutely right i 602 00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:53,630 mean i know this is an issue that stores 603 00:27:58,990 --> 00:27:57,110 great emotion out there in the in the 604 00:28:02,740 --> 00:27:59,000 population and what I wanted to do with 605 00:28:05,410 --> 00:28:02,750 this video especially is to impress upon 606 00:28:07,540 --> 00:28:05,420 young parents that when they look around 607 00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:07,550 them in the world today and you don't 608 00:28:10,540 --> 00:28:09,710 see many instances of these terrible 609 00:28:12,220 --> 00:28:10,550 diseases 610 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:12,230 they're somewhere in the background but 611 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:16,010 their grandparents and people in older 612 00:28:19,540 --> 00:28:17,570 generations and many of the people 613 00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:19,550 listening to us right now will be well 614 00:28:26,590 --> 00:28:22,880 aware of what it was like in the 40s 30s 615 00:28:28,990 --> 00:28:26,600 or 40s and the 50s where you didn't know 616 00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:29,000 if tomorrow your child would be struck 617 00:28:35,710 --> 00:28:33,130 down with polio for example or maybe 618 00:28:39,550 --> 00:28:35,720 tuberculosis and all these terrible 619 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:39,560 diseases so my goal was to interview 620 00:28:45,550 --> 00:28:43,370 people who did see it and we could hear 621 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:45,560 from them I've got a small piece here 622 00:28:49,510 --> 00:28:47,810 Richard of one of the subjects in your 623 00:28:51,730 --> 00:28:49,520 documentary the vaccination chronicles 624 00:28:53,860 --> 00:28:51,740 speaking about his sister having 625 00:28:57,550 --> 00:28:53,870 contracted polio I'll just pay that this 626 00:29:00,580 --> 00:28:57,560 is early 50s and I'm about five or six 627 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:00,590 and I can remember sitting at the dining 628 00:29:09,730 --> 00:29:04,970 table and there's a doctor talking to my 629 00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:09,740 father who's standing up and the doctors 630 00:29:16,990 --> 00:29:13,760 telling my dad assisters my baby 631 00:29:19,930 --> 00:29:17,000 sister's got polio and the look of 632 00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:19,940 horror on his face and I can hear my 633 00:29:26,170 --> 00:29:22,640 mother sobbing in the bedroom because 634 00:29:27,610 --> 00:29:26,180 this is the worst possible news that's 635 00:29:29,530 --> 00:29:27,620 just one of the people that you speak 636 00:29:31,420 --> 00:29:29,540 with in the vaccination chronicles 637 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:31,430 Richard how did you find the people to 638 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:33,650 speak to for the documentary oh it's a 639 00:29:37,390 --> 00:29:35,330 very nice man by the name of Ken MacLeod 640 00:29:39,850 --> 00:29:37,400 who is very interested in this topic but 641 00:29:43,390 --> 00:29:39,860 I I sort of put out a call through my 642 00:29:45,190 --> 00:29:43,400 network so full disclosure I'm in with 643 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:45,200 the Australian skeptics as well and the 644 00:29:49,830 --> 00:29:46,730 stone skeptics do a lot of work in 645 00:29:53,230 --> 00:29:49,840 fighting myths and misconceptions about 646 00:29:56,050 --> 00:29:53,240 vaccinations and I'd found people of 647 00:29:57,340 --> 00:29:56,060 that generation and older and the older 648 00:29:58,900 --> 00:29:57,350 generation who saw these things 649 00:30:02,320 --> 00:29:58,910 firsthand because those are the people I 650 00:30:05,290 --> 00:30:02,330 really wanted to talk to because i 651 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:05,300 haven't seen Ward's full of 20 children 652 00:30:10,150 --> 00:30:07,130 in wheelchairs with stricken with polio 653 00:30:13,420 --> 00:30:10,160 I had seen an iron lung but it was in a 654 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:13,430 museum but before before the whites 655 00:30:16,990 --> 00:30:15,050 producer vaccination they weren't in 656 00:30:18,790 --> 00:30:17,000 museums they were in hospital wards with 657 00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:18,800 and they were fill it full of children 658 00:30:24,250 --> 00:30:22,310 and this is something that we just don't 659 00:30:25,810 --> 00:30:24,260 want to have brought back 660 00:30:28,450 --> 00:30:25,820 my guest is Richard Saunders here at 661 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:28,460 1233 talking about his short documentary 662 00:30:34,060 --> 00:30:31,850 the vaccination Chronicles I Richard a 663 00:30:37,150 --> 00:30:34,070 couple of years ago I did a series with 664 00:30:40,630 --> 00:30:37,160 a family friend who was undergoing a 665 00:30:43,180 --> 00:30:40,640 huge surgery and radiotherapy for a 666 00:30:45,220 --> 00:30:43,190 throat cancer caused by the human 667 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:45,230 papillomavirus and of course we we now 668 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:47,210 from this year our single from the start 669 00:30:52,780 --> 00:30:49,970 of last year seeing Australian boys in 670 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:52,790 year 7 vaccinated against HPV not just 671 00:30:58,690 --> 00:30:56,930 the the girls and I like science I think 672 00:31:00,760 --> 00:30:58,700 science is a pretty good thing and my 673 00:31:02,770 --> 00:31:00,770 elder son this week came home with his 674 00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:02,780 third little docket saying that he had 675 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:05,840 now completed his HPV vaccination course 676 00:31:11,290 --> 00:31:09,890 and I could have cried because he of all 677 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:11,300 the things that he will have to worry 678 00:31:16,210 --> 00:31:14,330 about in his lifetime going through what 679 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:16,220 our friend went through won't be one of 680 00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:18,650 them absolutely right absolutely right 681 00:31:25,210 --> 00:31:21,200 and use a parent won't ever have to 682 00:31:26,590 --> 00:31:25,220 worry about will my child tomorrow be 683 00:31:29,260 --> 00:31:26,600 struck and down as struck down or 684 00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:29,270 something like polio or tuberculosis why 685 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:33,200 because we developed the science to 686 00:31:38,110 --> 00:31:36,890 fight these things and what's another 687 00:31:40,330 --> 00:31:38,120 thing in the back of my mind of course 688 00:31:42,370 --> 00:31:40,340 when I was making this was not only to 689 00:31:43,990 --> 00:31:42,380 let young people of today young parents 690 00:31:46,510 --> 00:31:44,000 know that this is what it was like not 691 00:31:48,970 --> 00:31:46,520 so long ago but really to impress upon 692 00:31:51,370 --> 00:31:48,980 them let's all work together to make 693 00:31:53,140 --> 00:31:51,380 sure these days never come back and one 694 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:53,150 day these diseases will be in the 695 00:32:02,020 --> 00:31:56,810 history books like smallpox why do we 696 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:02,030 still have a fairly large skeptical 697 00:32:07,060 --> 00:32:03,530 community though who are 698 00:32:11,050 --> 00:32:07,070 anti-vaccination who think that vaccines 699 00:32:12,790 --> 00:32:11,060 cause damage that they can cause death I 700 00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:12,800 mean there are there are potential for 701 00:32:17,740 --> 00:32:14,720 complications and risk in every medical 702 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:17,750 choice that we make but where does their 703 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:21,530 degree of fear of a vaccine come from 704 00:32:26,230 --> 00:32:23,930 it's a very good question a lot of it is 705 00:32:27,490 --> 00:32:26,240 to do a simple misinformation on the 706 00:32:29,530 --> 00:32:27,500 internet and you have a nose the 707 00:32:33,100 --> 00:32:29,540 internet is full of interesting 708 00:32:36,190 --> 00:32:33,110 information both good and bad I think it 709 00:32:37,970 --> 00:32:36,200 parley stems from a natural protection 710 00:32:39,470 --> 00:32:37,980 the parent 711 00:32:41,570 --> 00:32:39,480 feel towards their children if there's 712 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:41,580 even a little bit of doubt sometimes 713 00:32:46,789 --> 00:32:44,730 they're making that doubt cloud their 714 00:32:49,549 --> 00:32:46,799 their better judgment should we say a 715 00:32:51,950 --> 00:32:49,559 lot of it is unfortunately conspiracy 716 00:32:53,810 --> 00:32:51,960 theory mongers a lot of the 717 00:32:56,659 --> 00:32:53,820 anti-vaccination people are convinced 718 00:32:58,490 --> 00:32:56,669 that it's all a big plot by evil 719 00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:58,500 pharmaceutical companies and one world 720 00:33:02,690 --> 00:33:01,200 governments to do to do bad to us when 721 00:33:04,130 --> 00:33:02,700 you look at the figures and you hear the 722 00:33:07,730 --> 00:33:04,140 stories of what it used to be like 723 00:33:09,950 --> 00:33:07,740 compared to now you know those arguments 724 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:09,960 sort of just just wilt away but you are 725 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:12,090 absolutely right with every procedure 726 00:33:17,450 --> 00:33:14,970 there's of course there's an element of 727 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:17,460 risk and we're not for one moment saying 728 00:33:21,770 --> 00:33:19,650 that's not the case seat belts have the 729 00:33:24,110 --> 00:33:21,780 potential to cause risk but we still got 730 00:33:26,750 --> 00:33:24,120 buckle up when we get into the car so 731 00:33:29,299 --> 00:33:26,760 into the future Richard how do we combat 732 00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:29,309 this how do we combat the fact that 20 733 00:33:34,970 --> 00:33:33,480 years ago there was a paper that was 734 00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:34,980 published in the lancet medical journey 735 00:33:38,350 --> 00:33:36,720 journal claiming that there was a link 736 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:38,360 between the measles mumps and rubella 737 00:33:44,330 --> 00:33:41,370 vaccine and autism and even though the 738 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:44,340 lancet have now retracted that that 739 00:33:49,250 --> 00:33:46,530 publication in that paper from their 740 00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:49,260 publication there are still many many 741 00:33:54,260 --> 00:33:51,120 people who believe that there is a link 742 00:33:57,049 --> 00:33:54,270 between the MMR vaccine and autism how 743 00:34:00,110 --> 00:33:57,059 do how do we make the falsehoods go away 744 00:34:02,330 --> 00:34:00,120 I wish I knew the good answer to that I 745 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:02,340 really do I think talking about it on 746 00:34:07,159 --> 00:34:04,770 the radio like we're doing today and I'm 747 00:34:09,530 --> 00:34:07,169 pleased you to social networking and 748 00:34:11,570 --> 00:34:09,540 this is being heard all around the world 749 00:34:14,540 --> 00:34:11,580 things like this help letting people 750 00:34:16,730 --> 00:34:14,550 know that that has been discredited and 751 00:34:19,250 --> 00:34:16,740 that has absolutely been discredited I 752 00:34:22,669 --> 00:34:19,260 hope that my documentary will help when 753 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:22,679 people discover the horrors that are no 754 00:34:27,109 --> 00:34:24,690 longer faced in our society but are 755 00:34:29,570 --> 00:34:27,119 still present in developing parts of the 756 00:34:31,340 --> 00:34:29,580 world and we can't forget that um we 757 00:34:33,740 --> 00:34:31,350 keep talking about what I think is the 758 00:34:35,240 --> 00:34:33,750 best action we can to do you think it is 759 00:34:37,970 --> 00:34:35,250 as simple as we just don't see these 760 00:34:40,070 --> 00:34:37,980 diseases anymore so therefore we we 761 00:34:42,349 --> 00:34:40,080 don't comprehend how truly devastating 762 00:34:43,879 --> 00:34:42,359 there can be I think that's a large part 763 00:34:46,250 --> 00:34:43,889 of it I mean I can't comprehend that 764 00:34:48,889 --> 00:34:46,260 I've seen historical videos that I have 765 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:48,899 historical video clips in my documentary 766 00:34:51,790 --> 00:34:50,490 of wards full of sick children which we 767 00:34:54,230 --> 00:34:51,800 don't see anymore 768 00:34:57,170 --> 00:34:54,240 and out of sight out of mind maybe 769 00:34:59,000 --> 00:34:57,180 that's part of the problem but it's good 770 00:35:01,940 --> 00:34:59,010 to remind ourselves to keep our herd 771 00:35:04,130 --> 00:35:01,950 immunity up and keep our vaccinations up 772 00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:04,140 to now Richard with your documentary the 773 00:35:07,819 --> 00:35:05,760 vaccination chronicles you do want 774 00:35:10,430 --> 00:35:07,829 everybody to see it and therefore it's 775 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:10,440 on YouTube it's the best place for it 776 00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:12,810 it's on YouTube it's free to view well 777 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:14,250 like everything is on YouTube but it's 778 00:35:17,809 --> 00:35:16,290 free to air publicly if people wish if 779 00:35:20,210 --> 00:35:17,819 they wish to have a copy I'm going to 780 00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:20,220 produce a DVD which will only cost 781 00:35:24,589 --> 00:35:22,560 production costs in other words a couple 782 00:35:26,450 --> 00:35:24,599 of dollars that's the Oviatt posted in 783 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:26,460 DVD cost i'm not going to make any money 784 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:28,770 out of this that's not the goal i want 785 00:35:33,740 --> 00:35:31,530 many people to see this and I must say a 786 00:35:35,569 --> 00:35:33,750 wonderful thing has taken place a little 787 00:35:38,870 --> 00:35:35,579 bit unexpected people from all around 788 00:35:40,550 --> 00:35:38,880 the world have chipped in and translated 789 00:35:42,620 --> 00:35:40,560 it into many different languages on 790 00:35:44,900 --> 00:35:42,630 YouTube you can watch it subtitled in 791 00:35:48,380 --> 00:35:44,910 English of course Dutch Turkish crushing 792 00:35:51,109 --> 00:35:48,390 Portuguese Italian Danish German Spanish 793 00:35:53,329 --> 00:35:51,119 is on the way and the DVD will have all 794 00:35:55,819 --> 00:35:53,339 these languages on it too I just people 795 00:35:57,770 --> 00:35:55,829 are good now the people are good aren't 796 00:35:59,059 --> 00:35:57,780 they on the large people are good now 797 00:36:00,349 --> 00:35:59,069 Richard when people though who are 798 00:36:02,150 --> 00:36:00,359 listening go well who's this Richard 799 00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:02,160 Saunders guy and what's qualifies him to 800 00:36:07,099 --> 00:36:04,910 talk about vaccination and immunisation 801 00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:07,109 you roll up your sleeve and put your 802 00:36:11,140 --> 00:36:08,910 money where your mouth is why can why 803 00:36:13,780 --> 00:36:11,150 should people believe what you're saying 804 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:13,790 you know what people should be 805 00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:15,690 interested in what I'm saying they 806 00:36:19,790 --> 00:36:17,609 should look at the documentary and then 807 00:36:22,490 --> 00:36:19,800 make up their own minds or do their own 808 00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:22,500 research or talk to their GP and see if 809 00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:24,480 their GP and qualified medical 810 00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:26,640 professionals back up what they see or 811 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:31,200 what I say don't listen to me and simply 812 00:36:34,579 --> 00:36:32,970 take what I'm saying is truth just 813 00:36:36,140 --> 00:36:34,589 because my name is Richard Saunders and 814 00:36:37,849 --> 00:36:36,150 over there you know I'm a skeptical 815 00:36:39,980 --> 00:36:37,859 activist I'm being on TV or whatever the 816 00:36:41,420 --> 00:36:39,990 case may be that's what I hope people 817 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:41,430 would do but you know I think I'm a 818 00:36:45,620 --> 00:36:43,170 trustworthy guy so eager you've also 819 00:36:48,319 --> 00:36:45,630 spoken to dr. Karl kozel Netsky who is 820 00:36:49,849 --> 00:36:48,329 very trustworthy one of the ABCs own and 821 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:49,859 from the university of sydney to share 822 00:36:54,170 --> 00:36:52,290 his experience with you too absolutely 823 00:36:57,349 --> 00:36:54,180 got color features on the documentary 824 00:36:59,150 --> 00:36:57,359 and he was very pleased when I put the 825 00:37:01,210 --> 00:36:59,160 idea to him that I'd like to use him he 826 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:01,220 jumped at the chance and he has got very 827 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:04,970 interesting stories to tell about the 828 00:37:08,050 --> 00:37:06,170 the early days when he was a young 829 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:08,060 medical doctor and his encounters with 830 00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:10,730 the vaccine preventable diseases do you 831 00:37:15,609 --> 00:37:12,560 think that perhaps people are putting 832 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:15,619 their head in the sand about antibiotic 833 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:18,410 resistance as much as perhaps we are and 834 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:22,130 maybe more so than vaccination I said 835 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:23,450 but that's a good point that's the point 836 00:37:27,490 --> 00:37:25,010 I have not covered on the documentary 837 00:37:30,550 --> 00:37:27,500 the documentary reads well there's your 838 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:30,560 next job my next you might absolutely be 839 00:37:33,730 --> 00:37:32,210 right I think that's that's a whole 840 00:37:35,980 --> 00:37:33,740 other documentary and a whole other 841 00:37:37,450 --> 00:37:35,990 issue I think yeah all right indeed 842 00:37:38,710 --> 00:37:37,460 Richard Saunders terrific to catch up 843 00:37:43,089 --> 00:37:38,720 with you thank you very much for your 844 00:37:44,770 --> 00:37:43,099 time I know that you are all over social 845 00:37:46,089 --> 00:37:44,780 media people can follow you at skeptic 846 00:37:48,220 --> 00:37:46,099 zone on Twitter if they would like to 847 00:37:50,050 --> 00:37:48,230 contact you personally ask you questions 848 00:37:51,730 --> 00:37:50,060 or find out more and we'll share the 849 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:51,740 links with the vaccination chronicles as 850 00:37:55,540 --> 00:37:53,690 knowledge that's very nice of you in the 851 00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:55,550 easiest way to find the documentary is 852 00:38:00,280 --> 00:37:57,650 simply go to your search engine and type 853 00:38:02,140 --> 00:38:00,290 in vaccination chronicles and it'll pop 854 00:38:03,970 --> 00:38:02,150 up it certainly will Richard terrific to 855 00:38:06,099 --> 00:38:03,980 speak with you madly thank you Richard 856 00:38:08,140 --> 00:38:06,109 Saunders independent filmmaker in public 857 00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:08,150 speaker well known skeptic but talking 858 00:38:12,190 --> 00:38:10,250 about his documentary that he's made 859 00:38:14,380 --> 00:38:12,200 available free for everybody to see 860 00:38:17,170 --> 00:38:14,390 about vaccination called the vaccination 861 00:38:22,839 --> 00:38:17,180 chronicles I can remember as a young 862 00:38:25,570 --> 00:38:22,849 adult heading into Hyde Park barracks in 863 00:38:28,780 --> 00:38:25,580 Sydney and looking at an Exhibition they 864 00:38:30,849 --> 00:38:28,790 had there at the time on smallpox and 865 00:38:33,579 --> 00:38:30,859 what smallpox did to the population what 866 00:38:35,020 --> 00:38:33,589 it did to people and I will never quite 867 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:35,030 I don't think I'll ever quite forget 868 00:38:40,060 --> 00:38:36,890 some of the images and things that were 869 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:40,070 on display during that exhibition if 870 00:38:44,589 --> 00:38:42,170 you'd like to know more call us 1333 871 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:44,599 1233 or put the vaccination chronicles 872 00:38:53,180 --> 00:38:46,490 into your search engine and you'll find 873 00:38:59,940 --> 00:38:56,520 hey guys Jay novela here simple question 874 00:39:01,799 --> 00:38:59,950 where will you be this November because 875 00:39:03,539 --> 00:39:01,809 I know I'm going to be at the Australian 876 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:03,549 skeptics national convention in Sydney 877 00:39:06,510 --> 00:39:05,170 and so will all the rest of us from the 878 00:39:09,599 --> 00:39:06,520 skeptics guide to the universe including 879 00:39:11,789 --> 00:39:09,609 George Rob and Dick Smith and dr. Karl 880 00:39:14,789 --> 00:39:11,799 and dr. Reggie and lots of other awesome 881 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:14,799 people why aren't you going did you not 882 00:39:18,510 --> 00:39:16,930 sign up yet get on there and sign up 883 00:39:20,490 --> 00:39:18,520 this is going to be some epic stuff here 884 00:39:34,500 --> 00:39:20,500 you don't want to miss it go to skeptics 885 00:39:38,940 --> 00:39:36,910 thank you for listening to the skeptic 886 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:38,950 zone yes another short episode this week 887 00:39:43,660 --> 00:39:42,050 for those people on the train and you've 888 00:39:46,450 --> 00:39:43,670 realized that you're not at your station 889 00:39:49,060 --> 00:39:46,460 yet in the show's almost over sorry 890 00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:49,070 about that very busy couple of weeks for 891 00:39:55,210 --> 00:39:52,640 me with lots of work here and there so I 892 00:39:57,310 --> 00:39:55,220 wasn't able to get to a very interesting 893 00:39:59,770 --> 00:39:57,320 interview that I wanted to get to this 894 00:40:02,710 --> 00:39:59,780 week but I'll get to it in the coming 895 00:40:05,020 --> 00:40:02,720 weekend get it to you next week it's 896 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:05,030 with an amazing now I'm not going to 897 00:40:15,340 --> 00:40:12,780 trust me it's a very interesting person 898 00:40:16,570 --> 00:40:15,350 well that's what they tell me they say 899 00:40:19,210 --> 00:40:16,580 they're interesting them I'll believe 900 00:40:22,210 --> 00:40:19,220 that and in the coming week I hope do I 901 00:40:25,570 --> 00:40:22,220 have lunch with me nod to the fat with 902 00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:25,580 him a big shout out to my friends up in 903 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:28,730 the northern rivers area there Heidi 904 00:40:33,910 --> 00:40:30,650 Robinson and her friends in northern 905 00:40:35,410 --> 00:40:33,920 rivers vaccination supporters group who 906 00:40:38,070 --> 00:40:35,420 do wonderful things like put up their 907 00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:38,080 flyers around North Coast area 908 00:40:45,660 --> 00:40:40,910 encouraging people to vaccinate well 909 00:40:48,310 --> 00:40:45,670 done well done indeed I think a lot of 910 00:40:51,630 --> 00:40:48,320 chemtrails up in that part of the world 911 00:40:54,190 --> 00:40:51,640 hmm anyway congratulations to that group 912 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:54,200 powering on doing all sorts of good 913 00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:55,970 things in fact I think we'll have to 914 00:41:01,900 --> 00:40:58,010 interview them before long again to get 915 00:41:04,990 --> 00:41:01,910 an update on their progress in that that 916 00:41:08,260 --> 00:41:05,000 part of the country bad for this week 917 00:41:14,890 --> 00:41:08,270 this is Richard Saunders signing off 918 00:41:17,339 --> 00:41:14,900 from Sydney Australia you've been 919 00:41:21,870 --> 00:41:17,349 listening to the skeptic zone 920 00:41:25,170 --> 00:41:21,880 visit our website at www skeptic zoomtv